Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[fredgiblet]

Rommel?

Being a good field commander doesn't necessarily translate to being a good commander-in-chief, but yeah, maybe. Actually most of the brand-name field commanders would have probably done a better job than Hitler, the Germans weren't lacking in good generals, it was just the top-end people like Hitler and Goering that left something to be desired.

[discord]

the formating of my comparison was kinda fucked up....ahwell.
on the leadership issue, it was actually most hitler that fucked up royally, the guy went bugshit crazy after the war had gone on for a while, but considering the drugs he was on not too surprising.
most of the rest were reasonably sane.

[JQBogus]

Ah, Tiger vs Sherman. Internet discussion #2354.

Just remember that Tiger I weight near twice as much when comparing armor and gun.

[cacambo43]

Do we need a miscellaneous Nazi question and answer thread? Or an alternate military history thread?

CJSF

[Hālian]

We need a ban on military circlejerking; the forum is already starting to strain under its weight.

[fredgiblet]

Just remember that Tiger I weight near twice as much when comparing armor and gun.

Yep, heavy tank vs medium tank has a predictable end. Set a Pershing against a Panzer IV and the result is the same.

the forum is already starting to strain under its weight.

Hardly.

[Charlie]

the formating of my comparison was kinda fucked up....ahwell.
on the leadership issue, it was actually most hitler that fucked up royally, the guy went bugshit crazy after the war had gone on for a while, but considering the drugs he was on not too surprising.
most of the rest were reasonably sane.

Cocaine eye drops, among others.

Do we need a miscellaneous Nazi question and answer thread? Or an alternate military history thread?

CJSF

Might help with spontaneous derailings, then again probably not.

We need a ban on military circlejerking; the forum is already starting to strain under its weight.

lel. That could be offensive to women

SpoilerShow

unless, you know... they joined in.

the forum is already starting to strain under its weight.

Hardly.

The Demi-Human has spoken!


Edit: I am technically worsening the derailing.
I am greatly surprised all this Nazi talk that magically appears with no connections drawn to Godwin's law.
Has Science gone to far? Is the Internet evolving?

[Turrosh Mak]

Edit: I am technically worsening the derailing.

Let me worsen the derail even further. Gentlemen, behold Girls und Panzer with legitimate free streaming provided by Crunchyroll. Little girls in tanks! What could possibly go wrong?

[discord]

maus <----- what can go wrong.

edit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIY36UbDbQQ <---- awesome series btw.

[Mackus]

I shudder to think of how the war could have gone if someone competent was in command of the German military.

Rommel?

actually german commanders were very competent the problem was stretching their resources too far and a confusing set of rules about the german leadership.

Yeah. Oberkommando Wehrmach was in charge of war, Oberkommando Heeres in charge of Eastern Front, but not subservient to OKW. Also Waffen SS had their own command. As for outside of army, there were at least three foreign offices: Governmental, Party, SS. List of stupidity goes on.
Germany could've won, if they did not declared war on USA while in middle of Barbarossa, and made good use (military and propaganda) of Russian Liberation Army.
Of course, even if they did defeated USSR and UK, they would have lost war against US (if they got overzealous and didn't take a break after conquering europe), simply because they were too far behind on a-bomb project. That would be two weeks war.

[Arioch]

A sane German leadership might have been able to win the war, but a sane German leadership probably wouldn't have started the war in the first place, so that line of speculation only goes so far.

[GeoModder]

Of course, even if they did defeated USSR and UK, they would have lost war against US (if they got overzealous and didn't take a break after conquering europe), simply because they were too far behind on a-bomb project. That would be two weeks war.

How so? IIRC, it were English bombers taking out the "heavy water" plant in Norway. And without an European landbase the USAF couldn't have hit zip that far from US soil.
Besides, how many A-bombs were available again to the US military in 1945? Three (from which one was a testcase)?

[fredgiblet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36

9900 mile range. New York to Berlin and back. Of course it would probably be shot down, but if that was after the bomb dropped so what?

[discord]

mackus: declaring war? stating an already established fact more like it, the US was already pouring in resources on the allies side, and escorting the allies convoys at sea, freeing up resources, not to mention the iceland thing.

and i find it sad that everyone fears the nukes so much, powerful weapons they may be, but not very practical really, and at that time VERY expensive both in resources and time(not to mention scarce).

and the country that won against german army in ww2 was russia, the tide had already changed when the US joined the fight, and the ones doing that, was russia, at a horrendous cost admittedly.
the US(and the rest of the allies) comes in and opens another front is not a small thing for the war, but still...i think i a small 'story' is in order.

on the western front, a german Fallschirmjäger(para troopers, one of the most elite of the wehrmacht units during WW2)officer was captured, taken back to allied camp for processing and detainment, on the way he sees the allied war machines, trucks of ammo, artillery, tanks and troops being moved to the front, and as he arrives at camp he demands to speak with the commanding officer, which of course wonders how his troops had mistreated him on the way, but the german officer simply shouts 'Why have you not won already!? if we had half of that material.....'
'nuff said.

edit
fred: or crashed, or flown of course, or.....etc, and after the war, but seriously either russia or the allies alone would have had serious trouble taking germany down, probably a good thing that england jumped on germany without warning when it did, otherwise we might have been speaking german now, and i do not like that language.
/edit

[Zakharra]

Will the Loroi try to control the information the Mozin's courier Prophet's Reason has about the new human race? How much do the Loroi try to control information? Among themselves or their allies? Is it likely that the Historians and/or the Barsam would try to send their own mission towards human space (based off of a guess since they have no idea where humanity is actually located)? Would the Loroi inform them?

[GeoModder]

9900 mile range. New York to Berlin and back. Of course it would probably be shot down, but if that was after the bomb dropped so what?

After the war thus.

[fredgiblet]

We're assuming that the USSR and UK were defeated, the B-36 first flew in 1946, the war would have still been on at that point, and with wartime urgency it would likely have been pressed into service ASAP, rather than run through a standard battery of testing.

[GeoModder]

Dunno. IIRC jet engines were the way of the future then.
Besides, if the assumption is that the UK and USSR were defeated, you can as well assume that the latest American equipment delivered to their allies fell into German hands, with all the consequences that encompasses.

[JQBogus]

I dunno, I would guess that if the war in Europe was not going so well then they would have let Japan stew under blockade, and would have used the two bombs they did have in August against the Germans. After those two, I have heard that the bomb plants could produce more at a rate of between one a week, and one a month. Sources vary.

As to getting them there without bases in the UK :

B-29s dropped the first two bombs after taking off from Tinian in the Mariana Islands, about 1600 miles from their targets.

Reykjavik to Berlin is about 100 miles less than that.
Reykjavik to Munich is about 50 miles more.
If they built a base on the east coast of Iceland instead, shave another ~150 miles off, putting all of Germany in definitely in range.

If the bomber crews were willing to fly a one way mission (Doolittle Raid style) then St John's in Newfoundland is only ~2900 miles from Munich or Berlin. I am not sure if 1600 miles loaded + 1600 miles empty is more, less, or the same as 2900 miles loaded though.


Finally, all these speculative 'what if X, Y, or Z country wasn't in the war' scenarios really depend on when and how X, Y, or Z came to not to be.

Example :
Are UK bases (and forces) not available because the UK is occupied by Germany? Or because the UK cut a deal in 1939 (sold out Poland and/or France) to avoid the war? What happened to the Royal Navy? At the bottom of the sea? Peacefully swinging at anchor because the UK isn't at war? Under the control of the Nazis?

[Mackus]

A sane German leadership might have been able to win the war, but a sane German leadership probably wouldn't have started the war in the first place, so that line of speculation only goes so far.

That is good point, sane leadership would be less likely to start a war (at least at two fronts). But sane leaders did started wars. And German people were eager for revenge. Not that I consider getting killed in war good way of taking revenge, but that was mentality of time. If I was illustrious leader in Berlin, I would probably take a five after Munich'38, and enjoyed life as most successful German leader since Frederick the Great.

mackus: declaring war? stating an already established fact more like it, the US was already pouring in resources on the allies side, and escorting the allies convoys at sea, freeing up resources, not to mention the iceland thing.

and i find it sad that everyone fears the nukes so much, powerful weapons they may be, but not very practical really, and at that time VERY expensive both in resources and time(not to mention scarce).

and the country that won against german army in ww2 was russia, the tide had already changed when the US joined the fight, and the ones doing that, was russia, at a horrendous cost admittedly.
(...)

FDR did violate US neutrality repeatedly, and there was strong opposition to it in congress, but they were silenced by German declaration of war. US would be forced to focus on Pacific, if it remained at peace with Germany, and Lend Lease would have suffered. And if Germans started campaign earlier (prevented Mussolini form his escapade in Greece), AND rather than terrorize USSR population unnecessarily expanded RLA to sensible size, AND delayed declaring war against US until after they were done in the east, they would have mauled Soviets.

Of course, even if they did defeated USSR and UK, they would have lost war against US (if they got overzealous and didn't take a break after conquering europe), simply because they were too far behind on a-bomb project. That would be two weeks war.

How so? IIRC, it were English bombers taking out the "heavy water" plant in Norway. And without an European landbase the USAF couldn't have hit zip that far from US soil.
Besides, how many A-bombs were available again to the US military in 1945? Three (from which one was a testcase)?

Going back on the "insane leadership", Nazi had dozen separate bomb projects, which did not shared information. Even one nuke would have could have forced Germany to consider surrender (and there were plenty plots to assassinate Hitler, without threat of atomic mushrooms). Even if they would be produced only at very slow rate, US could have still lobbed 20 or more, before Germany had their own nuke (assuming that they all missed). With Berlin, Cologne, and Munich (plus one smaller city as first "bloodiest warning shot ever") gone, war would be over.