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Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN 
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Now about "What do you have there?"

This could be test of trust or something else, like "you have this stash of junk, let see what you do with it."
Or genuine curiousness, like "I was expecting you to dress up, but instead you have found something interesting"

So, I would answer that this is personal data storing device used for learning and entertaining as well keeping memories.

Now if the loroi wants to take it away, it clearly tells that they have something to hide, but you could insist that you need it to write things up unless the loroi have enough matresses, so he wouldnt accidently break some taboo he has forgotten. Also, I suspect that losing pad wouldnt hindrance much of Historians, though it does take away his ability to learn from them before he get "released".

But if you can keep it, then you can "write your diary" anytime and place where you want. Though the loroi would be likely interested what you write on it.

If you lie it being junk, then you must lie again everytime you want to use it and it is also considered of being unnecessary for you. Good luck on trying to check it again.

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Mon May 27, 2019 2:31 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
novius wrote:
If you go that route...

... only to find himself on an examination table with Fireblade pulling her hand away from him

I didn't even thought of that!
My thought of mindfuck was that we dont see the world how it exactly is and either the signal from eyes to brain could be intercepted, or either how our brains reconstruct the image from the noisy signal by using "autofilling" with familiar shapes. Just as we see happy face on electric outlet loroi might use it makes themselves more presentable. Remember that there was race, who see loroi as their god just being near them.

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Mon May 27, 2019 2:43 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
novius wrote:
If you go that route, it could go on for quite some time, the situation getting even more and more worse, until Alex sees himself being blown up in the shuttle or whereever he is...

... only to find himself on an examination table with Fireblade pulling her hand away from him, and realizing that everything that happened since he thought to have been brought onboard the Tempest had been a giant mindfck. After all, seeing Fireblade in that telepathy experiment (inside the mindrape) could have already been an indication that there's more at play.

Or even worth - wake up in Umiak lab to understand that all blue space elf girls was just an artifact illusion created to earn his trust. Because it is much easier for man to contact with pretty female that with a giant bug.

Then again race obtaining such a powerful technology probably wouldn't need such difficult interrogation at all - they could just scan your mind and know all they want.

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Mon May 27, 2019 4:37 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
bunnyboy wrote:
Now about "What do you have there?"

This could be test of trust or something else, like "you have this stash of junk, let see what you do with it."
Or genuine curiousness, like "I was expecting you to dress up, but instead you have found something interesting"


We've already seen Beryl reacting poorly when she thinks she's been left out of the loop. Major example had been when she caught him shaking hands with Talon... her first question was whether humans indeed have a ritual involving touching hands or not. And she sounded pretty much put out that she wasn't the first one to learn about that tidbit.


Last edited by novius on Mon May 27, 2019 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon May 27, 2019 6:34 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Alex: "Ok I cannot lie to you. I...was looking for porn."
Beryl: "...so, you need some accommodations after all. (grin)"


Mon May 27, 2019 7:10 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
raistlin34 wrote:
Alex: "Ok I cannot lie to you. I...was looking for porn."
Beryl: "...so, you need some accommodations after all. (grin)"


I'm sooo there! :) :lol:

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Mon May 27, 2019 7:48 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
"Oh, I was just updating my Sonic slash-fic. Would you like t-"
*Door closes*
*Air-lock opens*


Mon May 27, 2019 8:09 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
hi hi

Siber wrote:
Given the broader history we know of out-of-comic, and the difference between the way the historian treats Alex here and how it treated the Loroi on the bridge, this strikes me as much more likely an attempt to sabotage relations between humanity and the Loroi than any earnest attempt to protect Alex.
The more I think about it, the more I find myself leaning toward this conclusion. Sure Alex was not treated well by the Loroi, but he's also supposed to be very smart, so I expect that he'll catch something that I missed in this equation.

• They were already doing nothing before the Historian Construct contacted Alex.
• Did the construct need to access the PAD in order to get their position? I don't see how accessing the PAD could augment that action more than the canister.
• What detrimental actions could the Loroi take to this plan that aren't suicidal? They can't go anywhere, they can't send for help through their own means.

I can see a lot of reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of creating distrust, but I can't see many reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of rescuing him.

Also, his mission is to establish contact for the purpose of good relations. The mission planners back in the TCA knew that they would likely not get a favorable deal, and that may come before any one crew member's personal safety.


Mon May 27, 2019 8:12 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

Siber wrote:
Given the broader history we know of out-of-comic, and the difference between the way the historian treats Alex here and how it treated the Loroi on the bridge, this strikes me as much more likely an attempt to sabotage relations between humanity and the Loroi than any earnest attempt to protect Alex.
The more I think about it, the more I find myself leaning toward this conclusion. Sure Alex was not treated well by the Loroi, but he's also supposed to be very smart, so I expect that he'll catch something that I missed in this equation.

• They were already doing nothing before the Historian Construct contacted Alex.
• Did the construct need to access the PAD in order to get their position? I don't see how accessing the PAD could augment that action more than the canister.
• What detrimental actions could the Loroi take to this plan that aren't suicidal? They can't go anywhere, they can't send for help through their own means.

I can see a lot of reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of creating distrust, but I can't see many reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of rescuing him.

Also, his mission is to establish contact for the purpose of good relations. The mission planners back in the TCA knew that they would likely not get a favorable deal, and that may come before any one crew member's personal safety.


I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information. Or they might really be concerned about him. I know, perhaps not, but other than reasons like that, I don't see why they needed to contact him either. And what would have happened if either the Loroi didn't leave/have the PAD or Alex never touched it?

CJSF


Mon May 27, 2019 10:10 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
cacambo43 wrote:
I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information. Or they might really be concerned about him. I know, perhaps not, but other than reasons like that, I don't see why they needed to contact him either. And what would have happened if either the Loroi didn't leave/have the PAD or Alex never touched it?

CJSF


Maybe humanity was created by the Historians in order to create an "immune" species that could be used against the Loroi, once it was ready.


Mon May 27, 2019 10:20 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Zorg56 wrote:
He can just say that he was looking for information about attack on bellarmine.

And he could be truthful about it since it is entirely possible that he intended to do that before the construct contacted him. It is possible that there is a copy of a sensor log in there, perhaps down to an actual picture of the alien vessel.


Mon May 27, 2019 11:05 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
hi hi

cacambo43 wrote:
I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information.
I'm not sure what information the Historian construct thinks that Alex has, that he hasn't already divulged. If that is true though, Alex is in an even worse spot, since he already agreed to a fair exchange of information, and suddenly going quiet would likely be detrimental to his personal safety.

Although I don't think it is very likely, given the insider knowledge that I have, I think that if I was in Alex's shoes I'd be worried a little bit that this is some kind of test to see if they can trust him. Not a position I'd want to be in, that's for sure.


Mon May 27, 2019 11:28 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
I'd say what the historians are doing is all calculated to keep Alex on edge and untrusting, they are beginning to set up control flags in him.. It will only take a few 'I told you so' to (in their mind) tip Alex towards trusting them.
I think it's highly likely Alex has gone through some form of counter capture training and he might spot what they are doing. After all, they are telling him to do some pretty strong things without actually giving him a reason.
A few questions I would be asking myself though.. The Barsam are religious pacafists but have a very close relationship with the Historians., how deeply entwined are their little holo fingers in the Barsams religion and how much of a little push would it take for the historians to turn pasifists into zealots.
Also considering how deeply they have been in the Bellermine computers., one of their trump cards could be..
"Nice civilisation.. Shame if something happened to it if the Umiak knew where it was."


Mon May 27, 2019 12:11 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
boldilocks wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information. Or they might really be concerned about him. I know, perhaps not, but other than reasons like that, I don't see why they needed to contact him either. And what would have happened if either the Loroi didn't leave/have the PAD or Alex never touched it?

CJSF


Maybe humanity was created by the Historians in order to create an "immune" species that could be used against the Loroi, once it was ready.

What if the Humanity is the left-over of the Soia? Evolved on the same planet, after the Dinosaurs (who are the Soia) left Earth, strip-mined most neighbouring systems (thus creating the "Empty Quarter), then went on to leave Earth alone so that it can birth another sentient species.... (wild idea, but I've been toying with it for a while now)

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Mon May 27, 2019 12:26 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Arioch wrote:
Beryl can't read English, exactly -- at least not yet. She knows those letters that Alex wrote down the Trade equivalents for, and she's clever enough to recognize some words she's heard aloud (such as "Bellarmine" and "Jardin") and to sound out words for which she knows the letters, but she has no way yet of knowing what they mean. But it's true that she can remember what she sees, and may be able to put things together later.



Yeah that is not very comforting given how quickly she was able to understand human time calculations via chemistry I think text messaging English won't be a challenge.


Mon May 27, 2019 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
CrimsonFALKE wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Beryl can't read English, exactly -- at least not yet. She knows those letters that Alex wrote down the Trade equivalents for, and she's clever enough to recognize some words she's heard aloud (such as "Bellarmine" and "Jardin") and to sound out words for which she knows the letters, but she has no way yet of knowing what they mean. But it's true that she can remember what she sees, and may be able to put things together later.



Yeah that is not very comforting given how quickly she was able to understand human time calculations via chemistry I think text messaging English won't be a challenge.


Beryl: S - E - N - D - - - N - U - D - E - S


Mon May 27, 2019 4:06 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Thing is, Beryl is frighteningly perceptive. She quickly picked up on the english spelling (or what Englishmen think to be 'spelling'), and quickly picks up on Alex's moods. It would be very difficult for him to keep things from her for long

On the other hand, as a scientist, she's more prone to be a free thinker and quicker to listen to a second opinion. That might not mean much by Loroi standards, but still.


Mon May 27, 2019 9:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Another intepretation of the events comes to my mind.

First, the late addition of Tempo to his entourage on the way to Seren was a bit ... too smooth. It's not just one, but two bridge officers leaving the ship in the midst of a hotbed, which is usually not a wise choice of action. Beryl as a Listel is quite understandable, as a scientist she's not exactly a frontline fighter or strategist. Tempo on the other hand might be much more important to the ship's operations and helpful in intelligence warfare.

Second, most of the people who came into close contact to Alex found themselves on the shuttle. Starting with Talon and Spiral, then Fireblade, Cloud, and lastly Beryl and Tempo. The only ones missing (of note) would be the sickbay and the rest of the bridge crew.

That leads me to think that Stillstorm might have sent Tempo along with some additional orders in her backpack, something that might be detrimental to Alex's wellbeing. As in, have him and maybe the other passengers being processed at a clandestine interrogation facility, or helping with the interrogation. Stillstorm simply cleared out all evidence of the Bellarmine having been there, ordered the affected people to keep their mouths shut and maybe even have her more unruly crewmembers (like Talon, and maybe Beryl) shipped off to a rather grim fate.

Yet, they didn't count on the construct to be there as well for the ride, actually reading the orders and deciding that helping Alex along would be its best course of action to destabilize that rather oppressive regime.

Though... whether the construct and the Barsam have a kinder fate in stock for him or not, that might be another question.


Mon May 27, 2019 11:00 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
The Historian construct could be telling the absolute truth.

Parts of it that is. Which is a problem of its own. Deception via omission of facts inconvenient to the speaker is a thing.

Trying to manipulate Alex into not gathering as much information about his situation as he can points to the bytes being less than benevolent themselves.


Tue May 28, 2019 6:05 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Overkill Engine wrote:
The Historian construct could be telling the absolute truth.


Everyone could be telling the absolute truth. As in...
  1. Tempo: "We are very interested in your species." (as a lab animal and on a dissection table)
  2. Construct: "The Loroi are NOT your friends." (we aren't, either. Nor the Barsam. You might have better luck with the Umiak.)
  3. Stillstorm: "Words are tools of deception." (that's why Tempo talks so much)
  4. Beryl: "I'll be taking very good care of you." (Reminder: Lab animal needs feeding and watering twice a day. Check for malnutrition)


Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Quote:
Beryl: S - E - N - D - - - N - U - D - E - S


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Tue May 28, 2019 10:34 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
And Alex finally remembers that he's the sole surviving officer in hostile territory. Has he not received any sort of counterintelligence training at all?
I can't be the only one that's taken note of Beryl and the other becoming so personable and nice so quickly.


Thu May 30, 2019 6:36 pm
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Highlord wrote:
And Alex finally remembers that he's the sole surviving officer in hostile territory. Has he not received any sort of counterintelligence training at all?
I can't be the only one that's taken note of Beryl and the other becoming so personable and nice so quickly.


Beryl and Talon, you mean?

Though, first, if we have to assume that Tempo is actually lying - as said, Loroi almost expect people to be lying as soon as they speak - she could have done it from the very start, with saying that he's been the only survivor. Such a lie would benefit her with making him more malleable.

But, the nature of the Bellarmine mission requires Alex to put at least a minimum of trust into the species they meet up with. If he has to assume that even the basic foundations of a possible alliance would be a lie, that mission was already doomed as soon as he had been brought on board.

At the moment, it pretty much looks that way, if not for these two officers getting rather personal with him providing a silver lining on a very dark cloud.

Though... of course all of them could by lying, scheming bastards, and those two simply playing a different angle.


Fri May 31, 2019 12:22 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
Don't worry, Alex. The Historian A.I is smart enough to fill the screen with cute cat memes to disarm even Beryl with sheer cuteness.


Fri May 31, 2019 3:15 am
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Post Re: Page 156: Dun... dun... DUUUUUUN
novius wrote:
Highlord wrote:
And Alex finally remembers that he's the sole surviving officer in hostile territory. Has he not received any sort of counterintelligence training at all?
I can't be the only one that's taken note of Beryl and the other becoming so personable and nice so quickly.


Beryl and Talon, you mean?

Though, first, if we have to assume that Tempo is actually lying - as said, Loroi almost expect people to be lying as soon as they speak - she could have done it from the very start, with saying that he's been the only survivor. Such a lie would benefit her with making him more malleable.

But, the nature of the Bellarmine mission requires Alex to put at least a minimum of trust into the species they meet up with. If he has to assume that even the basic foundations of a possible alliance would be a lie, that mission was already doomed as soon as he had been brought on board.

At the moment, it pretty much looks that way, if not for these two officers getting rather personal with him providing a silver lining on a very dark cloud.

Though... of course all of them could by lying, scheming bastards, and those two simply playing a different angle.


In diplomacy, intelligence gathering, and most especially both of those in any military capacity, Always assume the other party is lying to you. Also assume that all of them are lying scheming bastards putting on their best face, that all of them are doing everything in their power to screw you, and doing so with a smile and an outward facade of happy geniality. Because, in all honesty, you should be doing the exact same thing.

Politics is war by other means, and all war is deception.


Fri May 31, 2019 5:20 pm
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