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[Arioch]

Captainsmirk rightly points out that any reserves that are behind the front lines are effectively "hidden" from the enemy. A substantial portion of the Loroi fleet (including many of the newer vessels) is being held in reserve back from the front (though close enough to be called upon if there is a breakthrough) for two reasons: to keep the Umiak in the dark as to the Loroi fleet strength (the Umiak can only count the Loroi ships they see in battle), and also to keep them out of harm's way. The reserves aren't "secret" in the sense that the Umiak surely know that they exist, but the Umiak don't know exactly how many ships or exactly where they are at any given moment.

Covert intelligence is a tough proposition for both sides; though you may have an informant in the enemy camp, it's very difficult to get a message across the guarded front lines. Since there are no neutral parties there's no regular trade that crosses the line between the two sides. Probably the majority of intelligence obtained since the war started will have been from captured prisoners and recovered materiel.

Although pre-war traders from both sides were restricted to frontier ports, both sides will have obtained a lot of intelligence prior to the start of hostilities, especially from third-party contacts. The Umiak will have gotten more and better information during this period (the Loroi Union being much more open than the Hierarchy -- most of the Umiak client races don't know much more about Umiak core space than anyone else), so they have a pretty reliable map of Loroi space, whereas the Loroi information on deep Umiak territory is a bit sketchy (though the near part of Umiak territory used to be in Loroi hands, so they know that part well).

[Avian Overlord]

Okay, I have a crazy idea about what's going on. Kikitik was telling the truth about the umiaks' cloaker, and is laughing in this comic. Humanity has joined the Umiak Hierarchy and the cloaker is an application of human's psi-immunity*. Kikitik is laughing because he has a Trade/English translator and knows enough of what Alex said to see the (rather black) humor. We know a boarding action is about to take place - the umiak might want to prevent Alex from spilling any valuable information without the diplomatic consequences of firing on the last remnants of their new allies' mission. (Hey, the umiak are willing to sacrifice lots of "men".) Just a crazy idea, not terribly likely.

*If this application is possible, then from humanity's perspective teaming up with the Umiak makes perfect sense. By knocking out the loroi's main weapon (far-sense) they ensure a Hierarchy victory, plus humanity's first contact was with a race that was brutally conqured by the umiak and even they say the loroi are worse.

[Mjolnir]

Okay, I have a crazy idea about what's going on. Kikitik was telling the truth about the umiaks' cloaker, and is laughing in this comic. Humanity has joined the Umiak Hierarchy and the cloaker is an application of human's psi-immunity*. Kikitik is laughing because he has a Trade/English translator and knows enough of what Alex said to see the (rather black) humor. We know a boarding action is about to take place - the umiak might want to prevent Alex from spilling any valuable information without the diplomatic consequences of firing on the last remnants of their new allies' mission. (Hey, the umiak are willing to sacrifice lots of "men".) Just a crazy idea, not terribly likely.

*If this application is possible, then from humanity's perspective teaming up with the Umiak makes perfect sense. By knocking out the loroi's main weapon (far-sense) they ensure a Hierarchy victory, plus humanity's first contact was with a race that was brutally conqured by the umiak and even they say the loroi are worse.

The Umiak would have to learn that humanity's near undetectable to the Loroi, and even with their superior acceleration, would have had no time to find that out, develop the anti-psi weapon, deploy it in the field, and deliver it to this system in time to take out two Loroi fast attack groups and deal damage to SG51 before the Bellarmine got there. And learn enough about human culture to be able to understand what Alex said, in the time it took Bellarmine to make ten jumps.

[Avian Overlord]

The Umiak would have to learn that humanity's near undetectable to the Loroi, and even with their superior acceleration, would have had no time to find that out, develop the anti-psi weapon, deploy it in the field, and deliver it to this system in time to take out two Loroi fast attack groups and deal damage to SG51 before the Bellarmine got there. And learn enough about human culture to be able to understand what Alex said, in the time it took Bellarmine to make ten jumps.

True. Not very likely.

[Cy83r]

The Umiak would have to learn that humanity's near undetectable to the Loroi, and even with their superior acceleration, would have had no time to find that out, develop the anti-psi weapon, deploy it in the field, and deliver it to this system in time to take out two Loroi fast attack groups and deal damage to SG51 before the Bellarmine got there. And learn enough about human culture to be able to understand what Alex said, in the time it took Bellarmine to make ten jumps.

True. Not very likely.

Agreed, while Overlord's narrative speculation is highly entertaining, it makes very little sense from the viewpoint of the realistic plot Arioch is weaving.

The Umiak are purported to be very much 'good thinkers' so Kikitik might have been able to reason out Alex's existence and effect on the Loroi quick enough to make its bluff. Even if it did not know what precisely was the problem with the Loroi battlegroup, a difference in their behavior would have been immediately evident as soon as the humans entered disruption range. Kiki's laughter might have been upon hearing Alex's epitaph, spoken in 'English' or whatever Earth language he picked out, confirm (perhaps) one of its lines of suspicion.

That is to say, Kiki may or may not have guessed and/or highly suspect that the Loroi have found a psionically disruptive species, a new weapon to end the war in the Umiak's favor, a species primitive enough to enslave if found before the loroi can move to protect them.

[junk]

Don't want to sound incredibly snarky. But the blue skins essentially do have two choices on how to deal with a psionically disruptive species.
a) Protect them and work them into the war effort. Though this does actually require considerable resources, since you will need to at least temporarily keep a battlegroup around to work as a deterrent and if you want the species to be usefull for more than just a warehouse location you'll probably have to keep at least some technological exchange in place as well.

Or alternatively

b) By now they are most likely aware that humanity is not the most technologically advanced species out there. Likewise they know for a relatively certainty that, that humanity has at least six worlds. They can't know exactly what counts as a human world and what not but well probably have a general idea.

While this doesn't make humans completely inept it does make them an incredibly minor player. It would be economically far more sound to send that battlegroup into the human sphere but with an intent to destroy humanity.

A lot depends on inner alliance politics though. Can they do it without angering their allies far too much? Or perhaps are they afraid that enough humanity would get away into hive..shell space and enter the warfront against the loroi.

Basically the important question - do the gains of keeping humanity alive outweigh the threats of doing the same. The case would be different had humans been detectable, but they aren't.


Gods I still want to see a future human battlecruiser based on the design of the Bell but with more rotational guns than is rational

[Ktrain]

Extermination perhaps would be the least effective option available to the Loroi for many reasons:
A). The Loroi lack sufficient knowledge of Terran space.
B). The Loroi cannot Farsense humanity so it is likely there will be stragglers/isolated population pockets. This does not prevent the Umiak from eventually exploiting man.
C). Such an action would place the Loroi into a politically untenable position even if they win the war. It was a xenocide that formed the Loroi Union as a means of preventing such occurrences.
D). Deferring resources for scouting and the eventual destruction of a species (which from the Loroi perspective maybe nothing more than a Bugman trick) may require the diversion of sorely needed military hardware/logistical resources which would be better employed blowing up Umiak ships.

[junk]

Sure but it would potentially require less military hardware than actual protection. Which is why I'm talking about the economical cost of the whole thing in a sense.

[NOMAD]

Sure but it would potentially require less military hardware than actual protection. Which is why I'm talking about the economical cost of the whole thing in a sense.

well that would be true, given the umiak tendency of striking at multiple front at the same time. however, The loroi have limit info on how humans are "Undetectable" to their farseers and other info ( extent of technical inferiority, positions of the six worlds and how/what each planet is used for etc).

The loroi will need to get more info on humanity before it can act.

[Some Useless Geek]

...any reserves that are behind the front lines are effectively "hidden" from the enemy.

I must beg to differ with Arioch on technical grounds. The first is that nothing is hidden from sight any more. Remember back in the Cold War, when US satellite recon guys convinced Ivan that his "hidden" underground missile silos were visible to ground penetrating radar all the way from high orbit? That was nearly 40 years ago. Nowadays we have multi-mode recon sats that can read a newspaper from orbit. The Hubble can read a newspaper on Proxima Centauri IV. [cough]

Even now there is FTL "particle" detection research going on in the US and elsewhere that may provide the much-sought-after ansible of SF legend. Fermilab, out by where I live, is still conducting research into the detection of all kinds of exotic particles such as mu-mesons, quarks, yada yada. Some of this stuff may be FTL and pass in and out of normal space like skipping stones on water. We're the fish, seeing the stone from below the surface.

So, all the players in the Outsider 'verse should be able to not only see deep into enemy territory, but they should have a clear, undetectable, jam-free, intercept-free channel of comms as well. Bad for counter-espionage.

My point is that you can't hide anything. Once the ability to detect emissions of particles, waves, and photons gets to a certain point you can "see" as far as your instruments can be tuned. With phased-array detectors of all kinds in place nobody will be in the dark about anybody else's fleet dispositions, their battle exercises, or anything else. To suggest that any of this traditionally "secret" information can remain secret in a universe of exotic FTL particle detection is to suggest that one can hide the rising of the sun.

Sorry about that, dude.

[fredgiblet]

Re: Visible light

With visible light you're getting intel that's decades old, so the Umiak are just now learning what forces the Loroi had in the area at the start of the war, excellent information for them to be getting.

Re: Exotic particles

Assuming they can be reliably detected
Assuming they can't be shielded
Assuming they can't be jammed
Assuming that detecting them provides meaningful information
Assuming that the ones that are useful are FTL

THEN it might be militarily useful. More likely most/all will be STL which leaves you with the same issue as visible light and even the FTL ones most likely won't give particularly useful information (i.e. "there's a reactor in this area, could be a ship, could be a space station, could be a test reactor, could be anything")

[Some Useless Geek]

Let's not be silly about this, Fred. I used the example of visible light because that's something we are doing right this moment with current science and technology. Extending the technology forward is the purpose of "speculative fiction," and should encompass what we already know we can do and project what we think we might be able to do given current trends. The science in particular would support my claim that particle, wave, and energy detection will continue to be refined as long as this science has use.

And as long as the science of detection will progress so will the technology that uses it. We're already seeing superluminal events coming out of the research at CERN, so that's not too far fetched. And as I pointed out before, we're seeing other subatomic particle, wave, and energy research from Fermilab, Argonne, Sandia, yada yada yada. This isn't science fiction any more; it's science fact.

And how do you block, shield, jam, whatever, a neutrino? A mu-meson? One of the smaller, high energy quarks? A tachyon? These things pass through planets, for Pete's sake! They pass through all but the biggest stars, for crying out loud!

Right now we're capable of detecting all kindsa visible and invisible light, gravity waves, particles, etc. Astrophysicists are quantifying all kindsa useful data from the discrimination of this info. To suggest that we won't be able to refine our methods of detection, discrimination, and data mining of cosmic emanations is putting one's head in the sand, methinks.

[Arioch]

Real particles only travel at the speed of light. Even assuming that emissions from a starship drive could be detected 10-50 light years away, that information is still going to be 10-50 years old, which is simply not useful.

Assuming the existence of an FTL particle is all well and good, except that there aren't any that we know of. Just because a story is SF doesn't mean it has to accept every possible theoretical prospect as being true.

[osmium]

Yeah sorry dude, unless you can safely jump into a system and then jump back out (along the same or a different vector) you can't really scout said system. Any disposable method of getting a snapshot of the system (like throwing a one time charge jump drive probe back one system) gets prohibitively expensive to probe deeper systems and is also not likely to yield much additional information AND said information needs to travel back across a large number of jumps through the steppes to get back home. This is more likely for the Loroi, but Umiak space is so vast I doubt much useful actionable intel could be gathered in such a way. So you're really limited to combat operations (wins for what they sent, losses guessing what they would need to take out the fleet), anything your spies can figure out and likely the outermost defenses as you can probably recon en force any edge system (although again the Umiak likely have more trouble doing this as the Loroi intercept them enroute).
-O

[Mjolnir]

And as long as the science of detection will progress so will the technology that uses it. We're already seeing superluminal events coming out of the research at CERN, so that's not too far fetched. And as I pointed out before, we're seeing other subatomic particle, wave, and energy research from Fermilab, Argonne, Sandia, yada yada yada. This isn't science fiction any more; it's science fact.

No, it's not. There's been lots of speculation about how to detect tachyonic particles if they exist, but precisely zero detections. No sign of anything that actually carries information faster than light, at all. As far as modern physics is concerned, causality is still intact, and there's a lot of good reasons to think it'll stay that way.

That's reality, though. The Outsider universe obviously has FTL phenomena, but it's absurd to say that this means both sides must have FTL sensors that operate across interstellar distances.

[fredgiblet]

Extending the technology forward is the purpose of "speculative fiction,"

As stated by Arioch and Mjolnir can and must are two different things. We can apply every technological advance we can think of to it's fullest extent, yet you'd be VERY hard pressed to find a story that does, most cherry-pick their advancements, some focus solely on a single tech advancement that they run with for the entire story.

And how do you block, shield, jam, whatever, a neutrino? A mu-meson? One of the smaller, high energy quarks? A tachyon? These things pass through planets, for Pete's sake! They pass through all but the biggest stars, for crying out loud!

How do you teleport a 2.2km ship an arbitrary distance limited only by your aim and knowledge of the intervening space? How do you detect life-forms tens of light-years away faster than light with only your mind?

To suggest that we won't be able to refine our methods of detection, discrimination, and data mining of cosmic emanations is putting one's head in the sand, methinks.

I didn't suggest that we won't, I questioned your assertion that such technology will be militarily useful.

[javcs]

The very fact that certain particles can pass through planets and stars makes them effectively useless for active sensors - they'll just pass through whatever is there.
While the exotic particle reaction utilized to power ships may or may not emit the relevant variety of particle as a byproduct ... your own drives will be doing that too. You'll most likely be (effectively) drowning your sensors in your own exhaust. This may mean that other power sources could be useful.

Besides, even assuming that you can pick out the exotic particle signature of drive systems ... FTL does not necessarily mean instantaneous. This would (effectively) limit your theorized FTL sensors to tactical usages, as to even look at one system over, assuming it's nearby, say 5 light years, the particles in question would need to be moving at 1826.25c to be detected within a day. For the signature to be detected in an hour, 43830c; a minute, 2629800c. More likely, however, the particles would be moving at only a few times c, probably useful in a tactical situation, assuming the sensor array required to detect these particles is ship-portable and doesn't require fixed emplacements, but otherwise not very.

[bunnyboy]

The Outsider universe obviously has FTL phenomena

Or maybe not. It has way to create shortcuts through hyperspace, where distance beetween different places are zero or something.
I think, but this is just one theory with others.

[Mjolnir]

The Outsider universe obviously has FTL phenomena

Or maybe not. It has way to create shortcuts through hyperspace, where distance beetween different places are zero or something.
I think, but this is just one theory with others.

Ship drives let information get from point A to point B faster than light. Whatever the underlying mechanism is, it qualifies as a FTL phenomenon. And then there's Loroi telesense...

Back to the original post...I'm not sure why jamming or blocking neutrinos is relevant. You can probably detect a ship with an active power system through a star by neutrino emissions, but it'll be slightly less than lightspeed, and the same properties that let neutrinos pass through stars require very large detectors and long observation times. Free quarks only exist in the current universe in events involving extreme energy densities...you're not detecting a ship at any distance using them. Blocking muons isn't a concern, they have a lifetime of a few microseconds...and again, travel at speeds less than light. And tachyons are not considered to be real particles in quantum theory, and while some attempts have been made to detect them, none have been found.

All this talk about things being difficult to block is pointless anyway...the problem with long range detection isn't that emissions can't penetrate the interstellar vacuum, it's that they take too long to cross interstellar distances.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I realize that telepathy is supposed to be a mysterious thing that exists largely outside the scope of science in Outsider, however, I do have some ideas on how it could work plausibly.

If anyone here has seen Martian Successor Nadesico* you might recognize this solution. This method requires there to exist a powerful race who's artifacts are scattered across the galaxy. In Outsider, this role might be played by the Soia, or perhaps a different, completely unknown entity. During their time, they discover FTL travel and, by extension, time travel. They create an artifact that endures throughout time. This artifact is able to process information in a non-linear fashion, detecting certain types of events and relaying them to appear at the appropriate time and place. To an observer who is stuck in one time and place, this gives the illusion of instantaneous cause and effect, when in fact the cause and effect are being transmitted back and fourth across time and space.

*Largely a parody series of giant robot anime tropes but possessing a surprising take on FTL travel.