Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

Star Wars does have a sort of antigravity in the form of repulsorlift, a technology that seems so widespread it's used even for animal-drawn carts; meaning it's apparently cheaper than motors.

I don't think that's something that helps you get into orbit, but then Star Wars should never be confused with hard science fiction anyway. Attempts to explain everything we see in Star Wars inevitably get a little bit silly.

[GeoModder]

Since the cat is out of the bag (you linked to the new Seren essay, Arioch) I wonder if you would satisfy my curiosity.

During the almost battle of Juka in 1795 CE, was the "Loimollei" already the command ship of then Governor Eighth Dawn? I wonder because of the rather low acceleration capability of the ship, compared to for instance Admiral Sunfall's "Dostei Sizet" during the Semoset Campaign more then 3 centuries later.
And it is a bit ironic that Tabenite elements of Azerein Swiftsure's Imperial Fleet changed sides during the events at Juka. From what I read it seems that it was the Azerein who delegated more authority to the local level during her tenure. Or was it only the Sector level, not the star system level?

How useful can the Loroi Guard Stations and perhaps even Citadels be if they are so easily destroyed by a single torpedo salvo of an Umiak Khalkha Division as happened at Leido Crossroads? Granted, such a station should be able to deter a couple of the usual Umiak quincunx squadrons, but I don't suppose such a straggler squadron often manages to enter a strategical important system like Leido?

Since Seren III seems to orbit quite far out of its star (a year only a bit shorter then Mars' on an orbit around a cooler-type star), may I assume that it is the planet-wide geothermal activity combined with its greater mass and greenhouse effects that makes the planet inhabitable?

The essay mentions a "several changes of hands" of the Seren-Menet defense system. Have the Umiak managed to neutralize the defense system during the Siege of Seren a couple times? Or does the 'several' means the Umiak takeover in 2139 CE, the following Loroi reconquest in 2145 CE, and further "Khalkha" assault waves since then up to the present?
Following the above, it's been 15 (Earth) years since the recapture of Seren. Shouldn't that be enough time to put "The Great Lift" back in operation? Or is as asked above the Seren system still regularly contested, making repairs inadvisable to say the least?

[Arioch]

During the almost battle of Juka in 1795 CE, was the "Loimollei" already the command ship of then Governor Eighth Dawn? I wonder because of the rather low acceleration capability of the ship, compared to for instance Admiral Sunfall's "Dostei Sizet" during the Semoset Campaign more then 3 centuries later.

No, it was a different ship, a sector flagship. The Loroi state of the art hadn't moved a whole lot in the time between 1795 and 2140, but they definitely wouldn't have had the Emperor tooling around in a 350 year old starship. Some of the Semoset-era ships sacrificed protection for speed, but Skymaster was the reverse.

And it is a bit ironic that Tabenite elements of Azerein Swiftsure's Imperial Fleet changed sides during the events at Juka. From what I read it seems that it was the Azerein who delegated more authority to the local level during her tenure. Or was it only the Sector level, not the star system level?

Yes, even the Loroi Axis recognized that Swiftsure's system was a mess, despite it being "more democratic." Kind of like how in the American constitutional convention of 1787, even the states'-rights delegates recognized that the Articles of Confederation just didn't work; the central government needs to have some power to function.

Eighth Dawn had to make a lot of concessions to a variety of factions in return for their support; for the Loroi Axis, it was a "magna carta" of sorts that delineated where the power of the central government ended. Despite having dissolved the Axis Assembly, Eighth Dawn was very popular amongst most of the Loroi Axis (including Stillstorm) for most of her administration, partly because she wouldn't do the kinds of things that Greywind and her supporters were demanding that she do.

How useful can the Loroi Guard Stations and perhaps even Citadels be if they are so easily destroyed by a single torpedo salvo of an Umiak Khalkha Division as happened at Leido Crossroads? Granted, such a station should be able to deter a couple of the usual Umiak quincunx squadrons, but I don't suppose such a straggler squadron often manages to enter a strategical important system like Leido?

To take Gora Relay as an example: they need to have a courier relay base at that jump link for the command & control network, so the question is whether you make it the cheapest station possible, or you spend a little more to make it more survivable, and not vulnerable to a "cheap" kill by a lone enemy escort vessel. The smaller battlestations are not intended to stand alone against an entire division; if they are to survive against a large scale attack, they expect to have some kind of fleet support. The main fleet base at Azimol is just one jump away, so even though the Leido system does experience enemy penetrations, the battlestations aren't overly tanked up because they expect some fleet support. Station 121, at the Azimol jump point, is a minimally armed "LS-2" station, because they know they can send for help and have friendly fleet support in a matter of hours.

Since Seren III seems to orbit quite far out of its star (a year only a bit shorter then Mars' on an orbit around a cooler-type star), may I assume that it is the planet-wide geothermal activity combined with its greater mass and greenhouse effects that makes the planet inhabitable?

Yes.

The essay mentions a "several changes of hands" of the Seren-Menet defense system. Have the Umiak managed to neutralize the defense system during the Siege of Seren a couple times? Or does the 'several' means the Umiak takeover in 2139 CE, the following Loroi reconquest in 2145 CE, and further "Khalkha" assault waves since then up to the present?

Well, the moon changed hands at least twice, and there have been battles in the Seren system multiple times before and after. Seren Citadel and the Menet bases have been destroyed and rebuilt more than twice.

Following the above, it's been 15 (Earth) years since the recapture of Seren. Shouldn't that be enough time to put "The Great Lift" back in operation? Or is as asked above the Seren system still regularly contested, making repairs inadvisable to say the least?

Yeah, it's an easy, immobile target in a frontline system. Seren Citadel has replaced Silver Gate Station as the main port/shipyard for Seren specifically because it is more mobile and has some capacity to defend itself.

[Bamax]

And if you can't assemble things in orbit, then your ships and stations will be limited to whatever the maximum size and mass your best booster can lift. Our current space stations were assembled in orbit, not lifted from the surface in one piece.

Prior to the new JJ Abrams movies, both Star Trek and Star Wars assumed that all starships and space infrastructure were built in orbital shipyards.

The Loroi at TL10+ have very efficient atmospheric shuttle engines, and on a few major production centers they have built orbital elevators. The main drives used in vacuum on starships and small craft alike would incinerate the atmosphere of a planet (and probably the spacecraft


And it doesn't matter whether the shuttle is SSTO or uses a booster, as long as both parts are reusable (as SpaceX's Starship aims to be).

I would say it does. Reusuable boosters with a reusable spaceship atop can loft a lot more payload than an SSTO with the same exact engine and propellant... no matter what it is. The booster does not to have to make orbit nor deal with firery reentry, making it even MORE reusuable than the return spaceship that does.


If you want max payload shipped to orbit, you use a two stage system. A booster with a spaceship on top.

Shuttle will get you less payload to orbit, and if they are using atmospheric airbreathing rocketry or something that is fine, however as per the usual with rockets IRL, the more efficient an engine is with good thrust the more likely it will also blow radioactive exhaust.

It does not require 30g Loroi torch rockets to get radioactive death exhaust from efficient high thrust rocketry.

Project pluto demonstrated that... which could very well do EXACTLY what a Loroi shuttle needs to do... with a bit of propellant for orbital and landing/launch. At the cost of being a total 'cancer boat' to all flew over.


Basically, I would have an easier time accepting that Loroi shuttles used type A at low thrust setting mixed with normal propellant over any IRL plans that often involve radiation to get max thrust with airbreathing for SSTO's

Some radiation is not so bad if flying or launching over the ocean and it disperses enough.

In fact, I reckon any space civilization should have industrial worlds where pollution is not a big deal... the whole planet is a base for shipyards and weapons testing.

[Arioch]

It all depends on the economics; mainly, the cost of fuel vs. the cost of operating two spacecraft instead of just one, and the additional costs of the additional landing facilities (if the booster can't get back to its original launch point) and the cost of transporting the booster back to the launch site.

I suspect that you might be able to improve the ratio of cargo vs. fuel expended in transatlantic jet service if you replaced half of a 787's fuel tanks with cargo storage, and had the aircraft do an inflight refueling in the middle of the Atlantic. It's not hard to imagine the reason nobody does this; the increased cost of operating tanker aircraft and an airbase in the middle of the Atlantic probably outweighs the savings in fuel, to say nothing of the reduced safety margins of reducing the 787's maximum range, and the hazards associate with having two aircraft so close together.

If we were at the level of technology at which a large passenger aircraft didn't really have the range to get across the Atlantic safely, then refueling would make sense. And that's what they did in the early days of air travel -- except instead of inflight refueling, they made the aircraft amphibious and had them land in the water to refuel.

Technology changes the economics. Just because SSTO shuttles aren't practical today doesn't necessarily mean that they won't ever be. Maybe they won't, but they might. I have a feeling that some kind of efficient hybrid jet/ramjet/rocket engine may make SSTO spaceplanes practical in the not too distant future.

[Bamax]

It all depends on the economics; mainly, the cost of fuel vs. the cost of operating two spacecraft instead of just one, and the additional costs of the additional landing facilities (if the booster can't get back to its original launch point) and the cost of transporting the booster back to the launch site.

I suspect that you might be able to improve the ratio of cargo vs. fuel expended in transatlantic jet service if you replaced half of a 787's fuel tanks with cargo storage, and had the aircraft do an inflight refueling in the middle of the Atlantic. It's not hard to imagine the reason nobody does this; the increased cost of operating tanker aircraft and an airbase in the middle of the Atlantic probably outweighs the savings in fuel, to say nothing of the reduced safety margins of reducing the 787's maximum range, and the hazards associate with having two aircraft so close together.

If we were at the level of technology at which a large passenger aircraft didn't really have the range to get across the Atlantic safely, then refueling would make sense. And that's what they did in the early days of air travel -- except instead of inflight refueling, they made the aircraft amphibious and had them land in the water to refuel.

Technology changes the economics. Just because SSTO shuttles aren't practical today doesn't necessarily mean that they won't ever be. Maybe they won't, but they might. I have a feeling that some kind of efficient hybrid jet/ramjet/rocket engine may make SSTO spaceplanes practical in the not too distant future.

Ever heard of the Sea Dragon project?

Some type of reusuable water fueled rocket with a nuclear reactor and air breathing could definitely work.... which is much farther than sea dragon took it but I digress.

Such a booster could refuel itself. It could even fly itself to any waiting carrier ships.

Since when or if the booster is almost out of seawater propellant, just splash land, refuel, and keep flying till you get close enough to land.

Remember a scifi booster should never, ever, have to deal with reentry heat.

I am talking a booster that goes straight up, and leaves all the orbit up to the spaceship itself once it detaches.

Purely to maximize reusability of the booster.

Reentry is what tends to mess up reusability the most. Heat damage is not something one can undo... only replace.

[Ithekro]

Very 21st (or perhaps even 20th) century thinking. The Loroi are at least a millennia past us in terms of space travel capabilities and experience.

[Bamax]

Very 21st (or perhaps even 20th) century thinking. The Loroi are at least a millennia past us in terms of space travel capabilities and experience.

Perhaps... but it is also physics.


This is fiction.

If the Loroi have scifi materials that can do reentry multiple times with little to no burn damage, then I can ununderstand them doing what they do.

Seems likely anyway, as the highland shuttle survived an explosion that engulfed it with no burn marks though optics were fried.

[GeoModder]

Seems likely anyway, as the highland shuttle survived an explosion that engulfed it with no burn marks though optics were fried.

We must be reading a different webcomic.
The Highland had already passed Gora Relay when the Umiak torpedo's detonated on the station. Power overload through a detonation pulse is another thing then an explosion on the shuttle's hull.

[SVlad]

As for StarWars - in earliest 3 episodes the capital ships never touch an atmosphere
https://youtu.be/f00IkrWvur4?t=50
There is a scene where Luke observe Star Destroyer on low Tatuine orbit through binoculars. But since Episode two ships of that class casually float in the atmosphere. Kind of retcon.
Also shipyards was orbital in earlier SW games, but in later films ships started to build on planet surface.

[Ithekro]

On Corellia it seemed like they were building components of Star Destroyers on the surface, but assembling in orbit. Kuat seems to have its industry in an orbital ring shipyard network.

[Werra]

As for StarWars - in earliest 3 episodes the capital ships never touch an atmosphere
https://youtu.be/f00IkrWvur4?t=50
There is a scene where Luke observe Star Destroyer on low Tatuine orbit through binoculars. But since Episode two ships of that class casually float in the atmosphere. Kind of retcon.
Also shipyards was orbital in earlier SW games, but in later films ships started to build on planet surface.

I fail to see an issue with SW starships flying in low atmosphere. Ships at that tech level should be able to match a planets velocity and thus not need to break in the atmosphere, right? That means very little resistance during entry.
Blasting out the engine exhaust and radiation straight into the atmosphere seems worse.

[Arioch]

I fail to see an issue with SW starships flying in low atmosphere. Ships at that tech level should be able to match a planets velocity and thus not need to break in the atmosphere, right? That means very little resistance during entry.
Blasting out the engine exhaust and radiation straight into the atmosphere seems worse.

If the Star Destroyers were standing on their tails (where the main engines are), that wouldn't be a problem.

If the Imperial cruisers have maneuvering thrusters so powerful that they can keep station at a hover in a normal gravitational field, fine... except that we are shown in-movie what maneuvering thrusters look like (Courtesy of Millennium Falcon at Bespin), and that's clearly not what's happening with the Imperial cruiser hovering over Jedda.

I'm not against the concept that Star Wars megacruisers have some kind of antigrav technology; what I have a problem with is that there is no evidence of this technology in the six films; it was pulled out of Disney's arse for JJ and company.

Not that Lucas has some magic touch, but he's the creator. If he says Jedi are celibate, well okay, that's so; there nothing in the previous movies that contradicts this. But JJ Abrams and co making ship up doesn't thrill me... especially when what they make up is garbage.

[Bamax]

I fail to see an issue with SW starships flying in low atmosphere. Ships at that tech level should be able to match a planets velocity and thus not need to break in the atmosphere, right? That means very little resistance during entry.
Blasting out the engine exhaust and radiation straight into the atmosphere seems worse.

If the Star Destroyers were standing on their tails (where the main engines are), that wouldn't be a problem.

If the Imperial cruisers have maneuvering thrusters so powerful that they can keep station at a hover in a normal gravitational field, fine... except that we are shown in-movie what maneuvering thrusters look like (Courtesy of Millennium Falcon at Bespin), and that's clearly not what's happening with the Imperial cruiser hovering over Jedda.

I'm not against the concept that Star Wars megacruisers have some kind of antigrav technology; what I have a problem with is that there is no evidence of this technology in the six films; it was pulled out of Disney's arse for JJ and company.

Not that Lucas has some magic touch, but he's the creator. If he says Jedi are celibate, well okay, that's so; there nothing in the previous movies that contradicts this. But JJ Abrams and co making ship up doesn't thrill me... especially when what they make up is garbage.

Wow... good to know you don't like what JJ did to Star Trek and Star Wars either.

In fact, you probably have several old-school fans of older Star.Trek and Star Was here (not that new Kurtzman JJ wannabe stuff).


Because Outsider at least does what the best of both did. Namely provide interesting culture and situations (StarTrek), while also providing flashy space battles (Star Wars).

[Werra]

I'm not against the concept that Star Wars megacruisers have some kind of antigrav technology; what I have a problem with is that there is no evidence of this technology in the six films; it was pulled out of Disney's arse for JJ and company.

I'm almost certain that we've already seen Star Destroyers in the atmosphere in one of the games produced by LucasArts.
The SW ships do have some control over gravity, as they all have artificial gravity.

Oh no! I just realized something. Star Destroyers don't need anti-grav if they're buyant enough to float in the atmosphere. They're all blowup ships filled with helium. That's why they explode so often!

[Cthulhu]

Even though Star Wars is one of the most famous space operas, it's just that, an opera. It was never "hard" sci-fi, even the "soft" part was just background. Lucas was never particularly attentive to details, the books being sometimes leagues better in that regard. However, with them being declared non-canon and on top of that, with the new garbage movies that made short work of not only the lore, but good writing and common sense altogether, I've simply given up on taking it all seriously.
The technology, timeline, lore, plot lines, it all turned into such a mess, that it's not even funny anymore. It's far easier to either ignore the new stuff, maybe even the prequel trilogy, or simply abandon the franchise as a consistent "universe" altogether.


To get back on topic, a few questions:

1. Going through the Loroi Ship classes for my fanfic, I realized that some ships have "Warhead Launchers" in the weapon list, but no torpedoes in their ordnance list. For example, the Warhammer-class destroyer has 18, but the Curved Knife-class has none. What do they launch? Or are they not normally supplied with torpedoes?

2. What rank do the Diadem members hold, Torrai Diaderets with a Torrai Oirel presiding over them? Are all of them following the Emperor on her flagship?

3. What do Torrai Sillatozan do, are they department heads or do they support planetary governors, maybe sector commanders?

[Ithekro]

We start to see Star Wars ships using some sort of systems to fly, hover, take off and land in atmospheres starting with Episode One with the Trade Federation landing craft (which are pretty big). Followed in Episode Two by both the Trade Federation Core ships and the Republic's Acclimators. By Episode Three we got Venator-class Star Destroyers taking off from the ground and possibly hovering low to deploy troops. One would assume this is repulsor tech in action as we see no thrusters firing for these sort so shots. But than, Star Wars does not generally fit all that many science fiction side of the rule sets.....fighter behave like they are in atmosphere regardless of location, and generally with no evidence of thruster use. (plus there is sound in space...because reasons. Some books put it as in cockpit sounds for spatial orientation for the pilot...but Lucas just says his universe has sound is space.)

By the two Clone Wars cartoons, this hovering starships thing starts to become common. Long before Disney came into the picture. We don't see an Imperial Star Destroyer do this because there were no projects from Lucas with said ship during this time frame. The next time we see one was Rogue One (which is Disney). At which point we have to consider the in-universe age of this civilization. The Jedi were guardians of the Republic for a thousand generations...or an assumed 25,000 years. Galactic history even even older than that since there would be tech prior to the Republic since most of the major tech stuff in Star Wars is ancient by the time we see them in the window of films.

The tech used by the major species in the Republic are tens of thousands of years old. Many times the tech level of the Loroi or Humanity. At least in places. Some things seems to have stagnated, been forgotten, or have just gotten more efficient without jumping to a new technology. A ship can literally cross the galaxy in less than a day if they have a good navigation computer, a fast hyperdrive, and a well established route nearby. Other times it can take days or longer if you have a slow hyperdrive or a poor nav computer, and there are no really reliable routes charted in your sector. While the Republic/Empire's hyperspace tech, ship building tech, and some other things can be considered impressive, I find their weapons and shield tech to be no better than most other sci-fi stories in ability. I know people that tout turbolasers and the like as being super strong weapons, but I generally find them underwhelming when seen in action, reliant on numbers to do much even against ships that have their shields down, and not doing nearly as much damage to a planet or city as some number crunchers would have you believe based on shooting asteroids.

[Bamax]

This is NOT for a fanfic, although I think it would be an amusing one if all acted in character except the MC.

Suppose some guy other than Alex survives the Bell's destruction, and the moment he see's Stillstorm he is smitten with her, and as much tells her so at least during the battle scene, which only adds to Stillstorm's dislike of him.

That said, the MC still loves Stillstorm but also thinks if he can win her that he and her can be a power couple and rule the known galaxy! Since he can tell she has a high rank. And he... is like a low ranking officer on the Bell who has had delusions of grandeur for some time now.

Forget.saving humanity! He wants Stillstorm and to be overlord of the galaxy!

What possible chance of pulling this off does he have if he has Alex same skill set... just different motives?

50/50? 10%? 75%? 1%?

Like I am fully aware he woukd have to help end the war while also endearing himself to Stillstorm without her having him thrown out an airlock... it would make for fun watching anyway.

Just what does it take to break cold as ice Stillstorm. Maybe under all that hardness she is a reallly sweet, kind person or something LOL.

Nah... I think she is just a jaded realist. But it would be amusing to see her soft side too so long it actually made sense for her character and was not all of a sudden.

[Silvereye]

Star Wars does have a sort of antigravity in the form of repulsorlift, a technology that seems so widespread it's used even for animal-drawn carts; meaning it's apparently cheaper than motors.

I don't think that's something that helps you get into orbit, but then Star Wars should never be confused with hard science fiction anyway. Attempts to explain everything we see in Star Wars inevitably get a little bit silly.

I remember reading that in theory, repulsorlifts are the only drive system you may use until clearing the atmosphere anyway: the standard sublight engines are considered harmful. Arioch is right that the explanations can get terribly silly, and this is a prime example because it's already contradicted the moment the Falcon leaves bay 94. The repulsorlift drive is definitely helpful on the way to orbit, and it explicitly cannot function without a gravity well to push against. I don't see any reason that wouldn't apply to a gravwell generator too, but it'd be wasteful.

I'm not against the concept that Star Wars megacruisers have some kind of antigrav technology; what I have a problem with is that there is no evidence of this technology in the six films; it was pulled out of Disney's arse for JJ and company.

There's no question that it's possible to make a huge machine float in the air in Star Wars, that's how Cloud City stays up. The question is how much space you're willing to dedicate to heavy-duty anti-grav machinery: it makes perfect sense for a gas mining platform to have a huge fraction of the internal volume dedicated to floating in/on a gas giant. For a military vessel, that's a trade-off against armour and internal volume at the very least, for what gain? Star Destroyers can already deploy landing craft to get boots on the ground, or keep the high ground and just stay in orbit.

Even if the Loroi had that kind of anti-grav technology, I'm sure they'd have specialised ships for low-altitude floating. A dedicated machine that doesn't worry about trade-offs because it's the best for its niche.

We start to see Star Wars ships using some sort of systems to fly, hover, take off and land in atmospheres starting with Episode One with the Trade Federation landing craft (which are pretty big). Followed in Episode Two by both the Trade Federation Core ships and the Republic's Acclimators.

Notice you're talking about landing craft here -- why would the Trade Federation waste so much metal building big, slow, relatively vulnerable landing craft if it wasn't absolutely necessary? Even later on, there's no escalation to landing an entire harbour ship, only ever the core. The Acclamator-class are my best evidence for the status quo: it's immediately clear that these are the ancestors of the Star Destroyer, but the single notable difference is that unlike any ISD we've ever seen... the Acclamator is small enough that they can land on planets! It foreshadows the Empire, but also shows how distant it still is.

By the two Clone Wars cartoons, this hovering starships thing starts to become common. Long before Disney came into the picture. We don't see an Imperial Star Destroyer do this because there were no projects from Lucas with said ship during this time frame. The next time we see one was Rogue One (which is Disney).

I've never seen either one, but I suspect you're right, the details are lost in translation. The people working on Clone Wars cartoons are told their ships' capabilities, have capital ships float at the drop of a hat, and they and their audience think nothing of it. Next Disney copy the pattern for the sake of spectacle (and it does look imposing), without the context of "this is extraordinary".

Sorry for contributing to the tangent there. I don't see capital ships going far through the atmosphere as being a good idea in any setting -- by the time you have the magic tech to do that reliably, you have no reason to. You have asteroid mining for raw materials, and any modules that you can only produce on the ground could just be shuttled up to your orbital shipyards. In the same way a nautical ship doesn't belong on land, large spaceships don't belong on land either.

[Cthulhu]

There is only one possibility for some kind of sci-fi machinery that would not only be able to float entire battleships mere meters off the ground, but also be useful enough to warrant its installation in said gigantic warships: Not a lift that merely repulses gravity, but a generator that negates mass. A step above simply cancelling its inertia, it would blend the mass of the ship outside of local space-time. With the ship now being "weightless", it could literally float with very little extra power usage, or accelerate almost instantly (like those UFOs supposedly do).