Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Snoofman]

In most times and places on Deinar pre-starflight, pretty much anyone who appeared weak was going to get attacked by somebody. The international order consisted mainly of the target's neighbors negotiating about who would do it and trying to avoid being stabbed in the back during the process.

It’s funny that Loroi should be worried about getting stabbed in the back by another Loroi.

[Cthulhu]

In the late modern Deinar period, Zaral was starting to lose influence to Arran's culture despite a dominant military and having largely won a series of proxy wars on the Western continent, so the Zaral leader just said "screw it" and invaded Arran proper. Zaral won handily, so no justification was needed other than victory.

Since this was based on a Civ4 campaign, I can understand the issue. But doing a half starship(Mezan), half conquest victory is certainly interesting.

In most Earthly cultures, it was the warrior classes that become the nobility and royalty, and I don't think they saw the role of their class as to serve the nation, but rather the role of the nation was to serve them. "That's just the natural order of things, right?"

So, do the Loroi see their own civilians, or even the whole Union as such? Or would that depend on how traditionalist they are?

And you don't need to be expansionist to be militaristic; some of the most extreme warrior cultures (Sparta, Edo period Japan) were also among the most isolationist. Though it does help to have someone to pick on to keep your skill levels up... the Spartans had the Helots, and the samurai could invade Korea any time they got unusually bored.

Did they develop this stance on their own, or is it rather derived from their legends? Is it still known what stance their ancestors, the Soia-era Loroi had?

[Arioch]

In most Earthly cultures, it was the warrior classes that become the nobility and royalty, and I don't think they saw the role of their class as to serve the nation, but rather the role of the nation was to serve them. "That's just the natural order of things, right?"

So, do the Loroi see their own civilians, or even the whole Union as such? Or would that depend on how traditionalist they are?

The mainstream Loroi culture absolutely sees the role of civilians as supporting the warrior class, and not the other way around. The civilians are just failed warriors; they were also raised with the same warrior values.

The non-Loroi members of the Union are viewed by most Loroi as foreign allies, and not part of Loroi culture. Aside from a few xenophiles, most Loroi interact with outsiders as little as they can get away with.

And you don't need to be expansionist to be militaristic; some of the most extreme warrior cultures (Sparta, Edo period Japan) were also among the most isolationist. Though it does help to have someone to pick on to keep your skill levels up... the Spartans had the Helots, and the samurai could invade Korea any time they got unusually bored.

Did they develop this stance on their own, or is it rather derived from their legends? Is it still known what stance their ancestors, the Soia-era Loroi had?

It has a lot to do with their early history, but it's also reflected in their heroic mythology. In the oldest myths that are suspected of having pre-Fall origins, there is a lot of fighting going on, but it's not always clear who they are fighting or why, and the narratives usually focus on some internal thing that's going on... sort of like if The Iliad was told exclusively from the Greek point of view and they talked a lot about how Achilles didn't get along with Agammemnon but hardly mentioned the Trojans or the Greek homeland.

In the history of early Deinar civilization, they were kind of holding on by their fingernails amid constant waves of barbarian assault. The core of this civilization is militaristic but conservative, passive, reactive. Unchecked aggression was associated with the barbarians. In later history their fair share of Genghis Khans rose and fell, but it was usually the more careful and conservative civilizations that endured.

In their starfaring period the Loroi have engaged in warfare to keep alien neighbors in line; they have been willing to conquer hostile aliens in order to pacify them, but since they don't paritcularly like being around outsiders, most Loroi aren't especially eager for alien conquest.

[Cthulhu]

Trying to get my fanfic back on track, which isn't easy since I lost my notes, I ran into a plot hole of sorts. Therefore, a question, what kind of weapons were used to bombard all the planets during the Fall? Can their tech level or even type be gauged?

[Tamri]

Technically, if you are comfortable enough with gravity, the cheapest and most effective method of planetary bombardment is to collect sufficiently heavy metal boulders from the asteroid belts, acselerate them in the desired vector, and enjoy the show.

[Arioch]

Trying to get my fanfic back on track, which isn't easy since I lost my notes, I ran into a plot hole of sorts. Therefore, a question, what kind of weapons were used to bombard all the planets during the Fall? Can their tech level or even type be gauged?

I think it would be hard to tell from the cratering what kind of weapon was used, other than that it involved very high energies. There aren't the telltale characteristics of meteor strikes, but that doesn't rule out extremely high velocity kinetic weapons.

[Cthulhu]

I think it would be hard to tell from the cratering what kind of weapon was used, other than that it involved very high energies. There aren't the telltale characteristics of meteor strikes, but that doesn't rule out extremely high velocity kinetic weapons.

Well, the weapon type could be guessed to a certain degree. Kinetic impacts, their mass, velocity and perhaps traces of the shells (and the exotic materials they would be made out of). Energy weapons and their effects like ground penetration, temperature spikes, matter evaporation patterns. Antimatter/taimat bombs and their yield. Even more advanced weaponry, like the neutronium bombs and disruptors from MoO2. Or how about the stellar convertor?

Also, I'm unable to find the data about the Soia's tech level. Dreiman were estimated to be in TL13-14 range. So the Soia should be far above them, somewhere in TL15-16, with their clients getting TL12 baubles. Or am I misremembering the data?

[Arioch]

I think it would be hard to tell from the cratering what kind of weapon was used, other than that it involved very high energies. There aren't the telltale characteristics of meteor strikes, but that doesn't rule out extremely high velocity kinetic weapons.

Well, the weapon type could be guessed to a certain degree. Kinetic impacts, their mass, velocity and perhaps traces of the shells (and the exotic materials they would be made out of). Energy weapons and their effects like ground penetration, temperature spikes, matter evaporation patterns. Antimatter/taimat bombs and their yield. Even more advanced weaponry, like the neutronium bombs and disruptors from MoO2. Or how about the stellar convertor?

Above a certain energy level, it's just an explosion... even a kinetic impactor at high enough velocity will completely vaporize and act more or less the same as a bomb. Different devices might leave different signatures of radiation, but I doubt those would still be detectable after such a long time. There are chemical traces in the geological extinction layer that are indicative of widestread conflagration as would be expected, but no other detectable exotic elements (such as might be left by asteroid impacts).

I think that once you get to the destructive efficiency of antimatter-class weapons, there's not much higher to go when it comes to destruction on the surface of a planet... at some point a bigger crater doesn't kill you any deader. I think that further tech advancements would mostly focus on the measure-countermeasure struggle to get or prevent these weapons from reaching their targets. You could change the objective to something like killing all life without damaging the planet, or destroying the planet entirely... those sorts of things might also have been done, but there would be little or no trace left. (I guess the "kill all life" weapon would leave a barren planet with a fossil record that suddenly stopped... there are plenty of those, but they also have signs of physical bombardment.)

What can be said about the end-Soia-era bombardments is that the level of destruction seems excessive for the objective of merely winning a war.... almost vindictive. Somebody was holding a grudge.

Also, I'm unable to find the data about the Soia's tech level. Dreiman were estimated to be in TL13-14 range. So the Soia should be far above them, somewhere in TL15-16, with their clients getting TL12 baubles. Or am I misremembering the data?

Tech level can only be determined concretely from artifacts that were left behind, but it's not entirely clear that the Dreiman or Soia themselves actually lived in the structures they created, so the artifacts may not represent the full technological capability of either group. The Dreiman megastructures and terraforming techniques suggest at least TL13. The Soia-era artifacts and settlements themselves were created for use by subject races and most are not remarkably ultra-tech, around TL10-11, but some have characteristics of being designed and produced by a much higher technology, perhaps TL14+. But thus far no one has discovered a direct Soia artifact, such as the mythical dread-stars.

[Cthulhu]

What can be said about the end-Soia-era bombardments is that the level of destruction seems excessive for the objective of merely winning a war.... almost vindictive. Somebody was holding a grudge.

Nice, I can work with that.

Tech level can only be determined concretely from artifacts that were left behind, but it's not entirely clear that the Dreiman or Soia themselves actually lived in the structures they created, so the artifacts may not represent the full technological capability of either group. The Dreiman megastructures and terraforming techniques suggest at least TL13. The Soia-era artifacts and settlements themselves were created for use by subject races and most are not remarkably ultra-tech, around TL10-11, but some have characteristics of being designed and produced by a much higher technology, perhaps TL14+. But thus far no one has discovered a direct Soia artifact, such as the mythical dread-stars.

Actually, the most ubiquitous artifacts would be the Soia-Liiron organisms, especially the sentient races. That's TL14+, all right.

Also, wouldn't the crash-landed "true" Soia, the Loroi, have brought along a few examples of "true" high-tech. Or is that what the amplifiers are? Or do all who ask such questions get a visit from the Mizol inquisition?

Finally, depending on what the Well of Souls is, it might be an example of TL15: an artificial black hole.

[Arioch]

Actually, the most ubiquitous artifacts would be the Soia-Liiron organisms, especially the sentient races. That's TL14+, all right.

Genetic manipulation of sentient species isn't that hard... we can do it to some extent today at TL8... but I agree that creating a Soia-liron facsimile of organisms like Barsam or humans does require some significant expertise. However, it seems as though the Soia limited themselve to making facsimiles of existing species... it's not clear whether this was due to technical limitations or if this was based on doctrine.

Also, wouldn't the crash-landed "true" Soia, the Loroi, have brought along a few examples of "true" high-tech. Or is that what the amplifiers are? Or do all who ask such questions get a visit from the Mizol inquisition?

Crashing dread-stars were never a part of the Loroi mythos, so it was not a surprise to anyone that none were ever found. Neither the mythos nor the archaeological record give much of a clue as to how exactly the Loroi arrived on the various splinter colonies. Both the Loroi mythos and the Barsam religion hold that the Soia were not destroyed, but that they abandoned their colonies and retreated through the Well of Souls gate to their own domain. It is supposed that the "modern" Loroi are descendants of the refugees from that exodus, that were left behind and made planetfall in any way that they could. The same may be true of the Barsam and Neridi, though in both of those cases there were planetary settlements predating the exitinction layer... it's not clear whether the modern Barsam and Neridi are descended from the survivors of the bombardment, or were landed space forces (as the Loroi are assumed to be), or a combination of the two.

It is not clear whether the early post-Fall Loroi still had TL12+ tools. Some of the Loroi myths that are thought to be old but still post-Fall (the Legend of Tempest is one such) do mention items of great power, so it seems likely that such items did exist. But they would have been used until they could no longer be used, and most of these early civilizations were eventually destroyed by barbarian Loroi. If they existend, none of these items survived to the age of history.

[SaintofM]

Actually, the most ubiquitous artifacts would be the Soia-Liiron organisms, especially the sentient races. That's TL14+, all right.

Genetic manipulation of sentient species isn't that hard... we can do it to some extent today at TL8... but I agree that creating a Soia-liron facsimile of organisms like Barsam or humans does require some significant expertise. However, it seems as though the Soia limited themselve to making facsimiles of existing species... it's not clear whether this was due to technical limitations or if this was based on doctrine.

Also, wouldn't the crash-landed "true" Soia, the Loroi, have brought along a few examples of "true" high-tech. Or is that what the amplifiers are? Or do all who ask such questions get a visit from the Mizol inquisition?

Crashing dread-stars were never a part of the Loroi mythos, so it was not a surprise to anyone that none were ever found. Neither the mythos nor the archaeological record give much of a clue as to how exactly the Loroi arrived on the various splinter colonies. Both the Loroi mythos and the Barsam religion hold that the Soia were not destroyed, but that they abandoned their colonies and retreated through the Well of Souls gate to their own domain. It is supposed that the "modern" Loroi are descendants of the refugees from that exodus, that were left behind and made planetfall in any way that they could. The same may be true of the Barsam and Neridi, though in both of those cases there were planetary settlements predating the exitinction layer... it's not clear whether the modern Barsam and Neridi are descended from the survivors of the bombardment, or were landed space forces (as the Loroi are assumed to be), or a combination of the two.

It is not clear whether the early post-Fall Loroi still had TL12+ tools. Some of the Loroi myths that are thought to be old but still post-Fall (the Legend of Tempest is one such) do mention items of great power, so it seems likely that such items did exist. But they would have been used until they could no longer be used, and most of these early civilizations were eventually destroyed by barbarian Loroi. If they existend, none of these items survived to the age of history.

For the manipulation bit, People do it all the time to other people. Just look at Advertisements or the covers of books. Advertisements, street preachers, politicians, SO's, parents, your pets giving the Sad Eyes, and more rely on people's needs, wants, fears, lusts, good will, hopes, empathy, hunger, hate, boredom, addictions, and more to get what they want. Manipulation and taking advantage of the fact the human mind takes alot of short cuts when it analyses things is how both scammers trying to get your information and magicians pulling off a trick pull off what they do.

Being Jean Grey the race just makes it easier.

[Cthulhu]

Crashing dread-stars were never a part of the Loroi mythos, so it was not a surprise to anyone that none were ever found. Neither the mythos nor the archaeological record give much of a clue as to how exactly the Loroi arrived on the various splinter colonies. Both the Loroi mythos and the Barsam religion hold that the Soia were not destroyed, but that they abandoned their colonies and retreated through the Well of Souls gate to their own domain. It is supposed that the "modern" Loroi are descendants of the refugees from that exodus, that were left behind and made planetfall in any way that they could. The same may be true of the Barsam and Neridi, though in both of those cases there were planetary settlements predating the exitinction layer... it's not clear whether the modern Barsam and Neridi are descended from the survivors of the bombardment, or were landed space forces (as the Loroi are assumed to be), or a combination of the two.

However, the legends speak about battles where the Loroi, as the "true" Soia participated in, so there should've been losses? Especially since the Fall was described as an internal conflict. Somehow, I had the impression that the Loroi on the Sister worlds were the survivors of the Fall, given their quick regression. But perhaps they were marooned mutineers instead? Possibly even remnants of the losing faction?

It is not clear whether the early post-Fall Loroi still had TL12+ tools. Some of the Loroi myths that are thought to be old but still post-Fall (the Legend of Tempest is one such) do mention items of great power, so it seems likely that such items did exist. But they would have been used until they could no longer be used, and most of these early civilizations were eventually destroyed by barbarian Loroi. If they existend, none of these items survived to the age of history.

Then what about Mezan? It was there, where the Loroi found amplifiers, so was that a planetbound ancient Loroi facility? Or a crashed ship, since it also led to the development of the jump drive? What tech level were the ruins and wrecks? Or were there other finds of amplifiers and ships?

[Arioch]

However, the legends speak about battles where the Loroi, as the "true" Soia participated in, so there should've been losses? Especially since the Fall was described as an internal conflict. Somehow, I had the impression that the Loroi on the Sister worlds were the survivors of the Fall, given their quick regression. But perhaps they were marooned mutineers instead? Possibly even remnants of the losing faction?

There is no archaeological evidence of Loroi on planetary sites prior to the Fall, and there is no evidence of any ground battles around that time -- though the bombardments probably would have obscured such evidence if there was. It's not known what caused the Fall or exactly what the conflict (if any) was, but if there was fighting it seems to have been primarily a space war. There are scattered bits and pieces here and there that appear to be remnants of ships or stations that burned up during re-entry, but thus far nothing that could be clearly identified as part of a warship.

Then what about Mezan? It was there, where the Loroi found amplifiers, so was that a planetbound ancient Loroi facility? Or a crashed ship, since it also led to the development of the jump drive? What tech level were the ruins and wrecks? Or were there other finds of amplifiers and ships?

The site on Mezan appears to have been a manufacturing facility, which was staffed by the local Deinar Soia-liron species (the centaur-like Mozeret); no Loroi remains have been found there. All the artifacts recovered are from the surface. If there were orbital facilities, they are gone now.

The only spaceborne artifacts from that era that have been found are some of the Dreiman megastructures, which were damaged but not de-orbited. Neridi legend tells of a group of vessels that survived the calamity and hid in the Thabaki Stead, the megastructure at Derro. It is also presumed that some Historian ships may have survived, though they have not provided any records regarding this.

The design of the amplifiers is presumably very high tech, as the Loroi still don't really understand how they work, but their manufacture is not terribly complicated, as they were able to be duplicated by the Loroi at TL9.

[Cthulhu]

The design of the amplifiers is presumably very high tech, as the Loroi still don't really understand how they work, but their manufacture is not terribly complicated, as they were able to be duplicated by the Loroi at TL9.

Was Mezan the sole source of amplifiers? Or were there any other finds?

Sorry about asking so many questions. I've lost my notes for the fanfic to circumstances, and while I can still remember most of my background settings and so on, there's some stuff which needs to be ironed out or filled in. I'm mostly done with that, though.

By the way, every time I post something, a (HTTP ERROR 500) page pops up, but the post still appears where it was supposed to.

[Arioch]

Was Mezan the sole source of amplifiers? Or were there any other finds?

Those are the only surviving examples.

By the way, every time I post something, a (HTTP ERROR 500) page pops up, but the post still appears where it was supposed to.

That's happening to me too; I don't know what the problem is.

[Cthulhu]

Thanks for your patience!

That's happening to me too; I don't know what the problem is.

At least it doesn't seem to be a browser-related issue, since I've tested it with Chrome, Chromium and Firefox.

[Urist]

At least it doesn't seem to be a browser-related issue, since I've tested it with Chrome, Chromium and Firefox.

If it helps diagnose the issue, I note that *editing* posts doesn't produce any such problem.

Rough guess at a possible causeShow

(My programming experience doesn't really cover web pages) Perhaps the server is attempting to use the newly-generated link to the user's post to return them to the webpage, but the actual *post* itself is only generated slightly slower and so the link reads as invalid at the time of execution? Could be a race condition on the forum's server side.

[Cthulhu]

There's an additional error as well. While reading older posts, I'm occasionally getting this error warning at the top of the page:

SpoilerShow

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[SaintofM]

It seems that alot of human relations with various animals can be summed up as: I want it as a pet, I want to eat it, I want to ride it, and I want to wear it (not necessarily in that order or exclusively to one or the other). How are the Blue's and their allies similar or different?

[Arioch]

It seems that alot of human relations with various animals can be summed up as: I want it as a pet, I want to eat it, I want to ride it, and I want to wear it (not necessarily in that order or exclusively to one or the other). How are the Blue's and their allies similar or different?

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